Speaker 1 00:00:04 Welcome to the motherhood reimagined podcast, where we celebrate all past motherhood. I'm your host, Sarah Kawalski, whether you're contemplating becoming a single mother, trying to be one or already raising kids. This is the place for inspirational stories, expert advice, and informative guides, celebrating those who didn't follow the rules as they share the heartache and joys of their paths. Be informed, be inspired because you do not need to feel alone.
Speaker 2 00:00:39 Hey, everyone, it's been a while, but I'm excited to be back today. I have a special bonus episode for you. As many of you might know, I relaunched my membership community on a new platform with a new format. It's called the motherhood reimagined SMC community, as well as a great place to connect with other women on the single mom by choice journey. It's also a great place to get tons of relevant information, including guest interviews on topics such as is their love after baby. How do I know if I can afford to be a single mom, as well as how to have the donor conversation, to give you an idea of the level of information I'm providing you inside the membership. I wanted to share this interview from the inside with Kathleen Hunt, a trust and estates attorney. In this episode, we talk about the essential parts of an estate plan so that your child would be protected from ever going to child protective services. If something happened to you when to set that up and what else to consider when choosing guardians as well as so much more, I hope you enjoy.
Speaker 3 00:01:47 Hello everyone. It's Sarah Kuwalski. I'm here with Kathleen Hunt of unique law, and she is going to walk us through why you need an estate plan and what the special considerations are as a single woman. Uh, why it's ex especially important as a single mom by choice. Um, and some of the, um, things you need to consider, uh, and, um, be in, uh, considering to create your own plan, set up guardians, um, how to take care of your child and emergency that good stuff. So welcome, Kathleen, how are you?
Speaker 4 00:02:31 I'm well, I'm delighted to be you. How are you today?
Speaker 3 00:02:34 Awesome. I'm good. Thank you.
Speaker 4 00:02:38 So actually it's being a single mom that got me into doing this area of law in the first place. Mm
Speaker 3 00:02:45 Awesome.
Speaker 4 00:02:46 Wanting to make sure that I could protect my own kid.
Speaker 3 00:02:49 Mm. Yes. Were you an attorney before and then you specialized in this area or?
Speaker 4 00:02:57 No, I was in law school thinking I was gonna do something else completely with my law degree <laugh> and, uh, discovered otherwise. <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:03:06 Right. Awesome. Well, I know that, um, I used you to create my, uh, trust in the state documents and that when people ask in, at least in the bay area forum, that you come highly recommended to many people. So it's a pleasure to have you.
Speaker 4 00:03:23 Thank you. Yeah. The, the most important thing I think about estate planning is that you are in charge because when people don't do their estate plan, they have no say in what happens. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, which means not only that the assets might go where they don't want them to mm-hmm <affirmative>, but also that who's in charge of that isn't who they might choose.
Speaker 3 00:03:49 Mm. Meaning that like the judge would be in charge of making those choices. Or
Speaker 4 00:03:57 So if you make a will just a will mm-hmm <affirmative> your estate goes through the court process of probate mm-hmm <affirmative>, which says the court is gonna oversee everything that happens, but they're gonna make sure that whatever you said in your will happens mm-hmm <affirmative> so whoever you've nominated to be your guardian, the court will give preference to that person. Mm-hmm <affirmative> no matter who else might say, wait, I, I wanna be guardian.
Speaker 3 00:04:25 Mm. Okay.
Speaker 4 00:04:27 If you don't even have a, will anybody at all can go to the court and say, I want to be the guardian of this child. Mm. And other than some broad preferences for groups that sometimes means they fight it out. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and it might wind up with a family member that would've been your last choice.
Speaker 3 00:04:48 Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:04:51 And of course the biggest problem with probate is that you in court, and there is no such thing as going to court inexpensively. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:05:01 Mm-hmm
Speaker 4 00:05:02 <affirmative> so <laugh> a lot of the money that you might have hoped to leave to your kids or the people you were close to, or your favorite charities. That's gonna go to a lawyer. You never met mm-hmm <affirmative> that's not generally a great idea for anybody except the lawyer.
Speaker 3 00:05:21 Right, right. Yeah. So you provided this great chart to me before. I don't know if you want to, um, start with that and I can pull it up on the screen or, um, yeah, sure. Great information. Um,
Speaker 4 00:05:41 So is estate planning actually covers a range of things, including what happens when you're still alive? Mm-hmm <affirmative> but the part that people think about most is what happens when I'm gone.
Speaker 3 00:05:53 Right?
Speaker 4 00:05:54 Um, and when it comes to distributing your assets, you have three choices. You can do nothing. Mm-hmm <affirmative> you can create a will and there are some good do it yourself choices for creating a will mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, no low press is probably the best out there.
Speaker 3 00:06:13 Okay. Or
Speaker 4 00:06:14 You can actually do it properly and create a living trust.
Speaker 3 00:06:19 Right. Right. And do you mm-hmm <affirmative> go ahead. Sorry.
Speaker 4 00:06:25 When you create a trust, you do need a lawyer because the do it, yourself stuff is meant to be quick and easy. And the law is meant to make wills quick and easy, but a trust it's more complicated, which makes sense, because you get so much more out of it. You get privacy, you get to avoid court entirely, which is faster and cheaper and easier. And you get to make sure that whoever winds up as the guardian of your child, doesn't have to keep coming back to court every single year until they're 18 years old, which is otherwise something of a burden.
Speaker 4 00:07:10 So the chart that I gave you, um, which I hope people get to see essentially goes, can see right now the main difference. Okay. The main difference is between these three areas. The first one which says no, well, is if you decide to do nothing at all, and then the probate process happens, state law decides who is going to inherit from you. Um, and it takes a while. The chart says that usually it's one to two years, this was created pre pandemic. I have just had the first hearing in a matter set for next April. Usually the first hearing is set six weeks out. So one to two years could now be three to four years. Wow. Until the courts get caught up,
Speaker 3 00:08:06 That is crazy.
Speaker 4 00:08:07 The cost is gonna stay the same. It's a percentage of the gross value of your estate. That means that if you own a home, it doesn't matter whether you have a mortgage or not. The lawyer gets paid and the executor gets paid on the gross. And then creditors get paid your, your kids or your other HES. They don't see anything until all that has already happened.
Speaker 3 00:08:35 Right?
Speaker 4 00:08:38 All of it is a matter of public records. So somebody who wants to target heirs or beneficiaries thinking, oh, you're gonna have some money. Now, all they have to do is go look at the court record. And they do.
Speaker 3 00:08:52 Hmm.
Speaker 4 00:08:54 Um, probate typically means that real estate, uh, brokers come out of the woodwork and they call and they send letters saying, I'll sell you a property. I'll buy you a property. And if they think there's money in the estate, it, it becomes an even wider net of people who come out of the woodwork to try to sell their services. Whoever is appointed as the guardian and the court will decide who that should be. They have to come back to court every single year to tell the court, how did I spend any money belonging to this child?
Speaker 3 00:09:34 Wow.
Speaker 4 00:09:34 Every year that means they're paying a lawyer to do it every year. They're taking time out of their schedule. And they're paying court fees to file reports every year.
Speaker 3 00:09:46 Wow.
Speaker 4 00:09:49 If you don't do any planning, then children inherit at age 18, whether or not they're really able to handle that.
Speaker 3 00:09:58 Right? Yes. Very compelling reasons. <laugh>,
Speaker 4 00:10:05 <laugh> very few of the parents that I've spoken to think it's a good idea to put kids in charge of their entire inheritance at 18
Speaker 3 00:10:15 <laugh>. Yes, yes. I know. Yes. I know. When we set up mine, I think we gave him like the first amount of money that he could have was at like 25. And then even it still graduated, um, until his thirties, I believe is what we set up.
Speaker 4 00:10:31 Yeah. It makes a lot of sense to be able to decide for yourself and for your own family, what age makes sense? Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, 25 is popular. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but it also can make sense. As you say, to say, I only wanna give this child control of some and see how they do. And then even if they completely mess it up, they haven't blown the entire inheritance. They can try again later.
Speaker 3 00:10:57 Right? Right.
Speaker 4 00:11:02 If you have a will mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's a lot like having no planning at all, except that at least this time you can say how old the child should be before they get control. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and you can say who the guardian should be.
Speaker 3 00:11:17 Mm-hmm
Speaker 4 00:11:17 <affirmative> and you can say who the executor should be, who should be in charge of handling everything.
Speaker 3 00:11:23 Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, that's what that's with a will. Really?
Speaker 4 00:11:28 This is with a will.
Speaker 3 00:11:30 Okay.
Speaker 4 00:11:31 And for somebody who is either, uh, divorced or who is single and in a relationship that isn't married or registered domestic partnership, this is really the first time that you get a chance to acknowledge those relationships to you or to your children. Because otherwise, if there isn't a legal connection, those people are left completely out of the process. So chosen family who are close to you, who are close to your friends, if you don't do any planning it's as though they never existed for your child growing up mm-hmm <affirmative> because they have no rights.
Speaker 3 00:12:15 Wow. Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:12:18 Um, and for me, that's the most important reason, right? To do at least at least a will
Speaker 3 00:12:24 Uhhuh
Speaker 4 00:12:25 So that the people who are family for your family get included. Right. Regardless of the legal relationships
Speaker 3 00:12:33 Mm-hmm <affirmative> yes.
Speaker 4 00:12:38 But, and then with a will mm-hmm <affirmative> oh,
Speaker 3 00:12:40 Go ahead. No, go ahead. It sounds like you're going exactly where I was gonna ask. Go ahead
Speaker 4 00:12:45 With a will. It's still all public. Um, it's still is gonna take years and it's still gonna cost a fortune
Speaker 3 00:12:53 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:12:56 So the best choice is a trust
Speaker 3 00:12:59 Mm-hmm
Speaker 4 00:13:00 <affirmative> with a trust. The court never has to get involved except for a single trip to confirm the guardian. Mm that's it.
Speaker 3 00:13:09 Okay.
Speaker 4 00:13:11 The guardian is only the guardian of the person. So this is who's gonna have physical custody of any children mm-hmm <affirmative>, but you can name somebody else entirely to handle the money and the legal stuff. And that provides some good checks and balances,
Speaker 3 00:13:31 Right. Go back
Speaker 4 00:13:33 To court. Other than that,
Speaker 3 00:13:34 Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I feel like you, when you and I were working together, you really said it was a very good idea to not have the person who's the guardian be the trustee. And that if you keep those separate, then you're avoiding potential sort of, I don't know, um, people who are gonna take your, have your kids and then use all the money for their own kids or mm-hmm <affirmative> um, just being there. No, no conflict of no conflict of interest, right?
Speaker 4 00:14:04 Yes. You definitely wanna avoid a conflict of interest. But to be honest, once you've decided that you trust somebody to be guardian of your child, you trust them. That's the big deal.
Speaker 3 00:14:16 Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 4 00:14:17 And so for most of the families that I work with, the reason to keep the trustee and the guardian separate isn't because you don't trust that person. It's because you don't trust people who are gonna come along later.
Speaker 3 00:14:32 Mm.
Speaker 4 00:14:34 The trustee has to produce an accounting and give it to the guardian every year. You know, we still wanna keep track of how is this money being spent. You still wanna make sure that it's being spent for the child. But if the trustee and the guardian are the same person, you start to feel silly producing and accounting and giving it to yourself. That's a lot of work for nothing.
Speaker 3 00:14:58 Mm.
Speaker 4 00:14:59 And that's okay until the child grows up. And then the newly young adult child has a romantic partner who says, honey, shouldn't there be more money in your trust, honey, was your money used in a way? It shouldn't have been used honey, before you know it, honey has convinced this child to Sue the trustee because you must have spent my money wrong. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and they don't have any, any paper trail to defend themselves. The kid wouldn't have done it on their own, and it's not the trustee's fault, but this other person has entered the picture and put everybody at risk.
Speaker 3 00:15:46 Hmm.
Speaker 4 00:15:48 When you separate the jobs, the trustee keeps doing those accountings because they have to give them to a third person, the guardian
Speaker 3 00:15:55 Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 4 00:15:56 And so when honey says, shouldn't there be more money the child can say, oh no, no. They give this accounting to my guardian, gave it to them every year. And now I get them and see, it's really easy. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and no lawsuit is ever filed.
Speaker 3 00:16:12 Right. Fascinating.
Speaker 4 00:16:15 So it's a, it's a good way to protect the people that you actually do trust and do care about from somebody coming along later.
Speaker 3 00:16:25 Right. Interesting. Yeah. I wouldn't have thought of that.
Speaker 4 00:16:33 Sometimes people think that trust are only for those who have a lot of money mm-hmm <affirmative>, but it isn't. So it's for anybody who has a child and wants to be able to craft for themselves, how the children will be taken care of
Speaker 3 00:16:51 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:16:53 And it's for anybody who owns a house in the bay area. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because if you have assets over $166,000, that's enough to trigger probate when you're gone.
Speaker 3 00:17:08 Right. Right. Um,
Speaker 4 00:17:11 Some parts of the country that might be a lot of money, but not so much in the bay area.
Speaker 3 00:17:16 <laugh> yeah, definitely not. Yes. I know. My mom recently died in August of last year and one of her bank accounts was not somehow was not in the will or the trust. And, um, she hadn't named anyone and we ended up in probate and it took a long time and a lot of money, so I can attest to yeah. That not being a good thing.
Speaker 4 00:17:39 I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3 00:17:43 You know, it worked out okay. But it was a bummer that somehow that got overlooked. Um, so
Speaker 4 00:17:52 One thing that's, mm-hmm, <affirmative> go ahead. One thing that's helpful, particularly for single parents mm-hmm <affirmative> is to keep in mind that if you are temporarily incapacitated, you're still alive, but you are incapacitated. Nobody is legally authorized to take care of the children.
Speaker 3 00:18:12 Right.
Speaker 4 00:18:14 And so that should be part of your estate planning as well. What happens if you are just incapacitated, that can happen easily and more than once.
Speaker 3 00:18:25 Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:18:29 Yes. In, uh, in California, if you're temporarily incapacitated and you are going to stay incapacitated for a while, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you're in a coma or something like that. Someone can go to court and ask to be appointed as the temporary guardian of your kids.
Speaker 3 00:18:49 Okay.
Speaker 4 00:18:50 They're gonna look at your will. If you have one to see who you might have picked, but otherwise, pretty much anybody can go and ask
Speaker 3 00:18:58 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:19:00 And it takes usually less than a week, four or five days. Mm-hmm <affirmative> at least it did pre pandemic. I haven't checked recently. So that's really, really fast. It's only a few days, but
Speaker 3 00:19:15 Where, where would your kids theoretically be during that week? Is it sort of the courts?
Speaker 4 00:19:20 That's exactly the problem.
Speaker 3 00:19:23 Okay. <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:19:24 Yeah. What happens? Um, they, they stay with the police or they stay in foster care.
Speaker 3 00:19:31 No, really? Even if no one has contested that, like they're with your, your parents or your best friend or something, like, does someone have to go and contest that they're, that's where they're at? Or like, is there a scenario where they could just be at home with someone and nobody sort of knows about it and unless someone complains, they could at least stay with that family member or would the police or CPS sort of show up at your door and say, you haven't been formally appointed.
Speaker 4 00:20:04 It really depends. Sometimes you can fly under the Waya, but all it takes is, uh, a police officer, an ambulance driver and anybody to say, huh, child parent here. Uhoh and then yes, CPS showed up at the door.
Speaker 3 00:20:22 Wow. Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:20:25 So it is safer to not allow that possibility to happen. There is something called an, uh, caregivers authorization affidavit that allows somebody to step in instantly mm-hmm <affirmative> if you are not available so that if something like that happens your best friend or your partner or your sibling, whomever mm-hmm <affirmative> can step in and be able to authorize a broken arm to be set, to take care of the kids for a few days. Mm-hmm <affirmative> to do whatever needs to be done until either you are better or a temporary guardian is appointed. Okay. And it's just for that stop gap time, because mm-hmm <affirmative> you're right. That's a week
Speaker 3 00:21:12 Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. And is that the form? I feel like I remember this form that you told me to print and I signed and I put somewhere and you told me like, event, I, someone needs to know where the form is and that it only gets executed if something happens and they go and get that form and basically finish it. Is that correct?
Speaker 4 00:21:34 Yeah. You, you fill out part of it. That's the right form. You put it someplace easy to get to, if your kids are old enough, tell them where it is. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and if not, think about everybody who's geographically close to you. Mm-hmm <affirmative> who would be a good person to step in an emergency, tell them all where it is. Mm-hmm
Speaker 3 00:21:56 <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:21:57 But don't create multiple copies. You can't upload it and send it to 15 people because if two people show up at the hospital, knowing that there's been an accident mm-hmm <affirmative> and they wave this form, I'm gonna be in charge. Well, the doctor's not gonna release to anybody mm-hmm <affirmative> cause they don't know.
Speaker 3 00:22:17 Oh, right.
Speaker 4 00:22:19 So you need there to just be this one physical document. Mm-hmm
Speaker 3 00:22:24 <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:22:24 That a range of people know where it is and the first one who gets their wins.
Speaker 3 00:22:29 Right, right. It takes my breath away. Even thinking about it. <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:22:38 This is another reason why healthcare directives are a good idea. The healthcare directive, let somebody take care of your medical needs when you're incapacitated. They talk to the doctor for you. That sort of thing. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but that's also gonna be the first person who's called by paramedics. If something happens. Mm. I, I use healthcare directive kits that have wallet cards. Mm-hmm
Speaker 3 00:23:03 <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:23:04 So that they know if you in the grocery store and something bad happens to you, that's who you call.
Speaker 3 00:23:09 Right. Right.
Speaker 4 00:23:11 And that means that's the first person who knows, hang on. There could be a child who needs someone to step in
Speaker 3 00:23:16 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:23:19 Right. Because otherwise, if they're at school and something happens to you during the day, how do they find out?
Speaker 3 00:23:24 Right. Right, right. So can you, um, we're sort of covering it, but could you give us like a list of what are the documents that you would need to think about having in an estate plan or like what, what documents would you be looking for when you went to an attorney to do this? Um, and I found it really useful to know kind of what each person, like the legal requirements of that person.
Speaker 6 00:23:55 Mm-hmm
Speaker 3 00:23:55 <affirmative> like, I know there was one person I wanted to use that was like a British citizen. And it was like, there was that class of person couldn't be a non-citizen
Speaker 6 00:24:04 Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 4 00:24:06 So there are four main documents that should be in any California estate plan. You need a will, because guardianship is always gonna go in the will. Um, you need a trust so that all of the financial stuff is handled without anybody having to go to court, the person in charge of the will and the trust is gonna be your successor trustee. The same person does both of those. Um, and that has to be a us citizen who is located in the us. Okay. They need both of those things, not just one mm-hmm
Speaker 6 00:24:46 <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:24:48 The next document that you'll need is a durable power of attorney for finances. That's someone who handles your financial affairs while you alive, but temporarily incapacitated mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that person makes sure that your bills get paid, that the lights don't get turned off at home. That if you wind up going to, uh, physical rehab, that somebody can write the check. So they let you have a bed there. That sort of thing.
Speaker 6 00:25:16 Mm-hmm <affirmative>, mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:25:18 And the advanced healthcare directive so that someone can speak with your doctor, if you can't.
Speaker 6 00:25:25 Okay.
Speaker 4 00:25:28 The caregiver's authorization affidavit is most important for single parents, right. Because with a couple there's still a chance that both members of the couple could become incapacitated at once, but it's not as high a chance.
Speaker 3 00:25:46 Right. Right. And is that, would you say it's fairly, I know you're only licensed to practice long California. Um, but would you say that this is a fairly standard set of documents that you need across all states?
Speaker 4 00:26:03 Every state is different and I'm not qualified as you comment to say anything about other states, but in every state, um, you have to think about what if you are incapacitated in terms of your medical and your financial mm-hmm <affirmative> and if you're gone, what happens? Mm-hmm <affirmative> and so any attorney in any state should be able to address those
Speaker 3 00:26:26 Questions. Right. Okay.
Speaker 4 00:26:30 On my website, which is unique law.com mm-hmm <affirmative>, there is an additional information section and one of them under that is, um, how much does a state planning cost? And for me, I lay out, what's included in each package that I offer so that you can see are the documents that I need here. What's part of this, what isn't
Speaker 3 00:26:53 Right, right. Yes. That's wonderful. Um, so could you, yeah, go ahead. Sorry. I didn't wanna cut you off.
Speaker 4 00:27:01 I just wanna say the other thing that's in there is, uh, some ideas on choosing a guardian. Okay. Because it is the hardest decision for most parents.
Speaker 3 00:27:12 Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:27:12 And they try to think about, who's gonna be a replacement parent for my child. Mm-hmm <affirmative> nobody is, that's not an option. Mm-hmm <affirmative> you want somebody who's better than foster care.
Speaker 3 00:27:26 Mm-hmm <affirmative> right. Yeah. So what would you tell a single woman to consider when they're naming guardians?
Speaker 4 00:27:38 First of all, don't aim for the moon. Nobody is gonna be a mom to your child the way you are mm-hmm <affirmative>, but an enormous range of people are better than foster care,
Speaker 3 00:27:50 Right?
Speaker 4 00:27:52 Um, it's most important that you have somebody who shares your values. Don't worry about them having enough money. You're gonna set aside what money you have and whatever you can. And the trustee will use that to pay for what the child needs until they're old enough to handle it themselves.
Speaker 3 00:28:11 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:28:14 Um, then you look at the age of your child. If you have a very young child, the location of your guardian isn't as important because they'll adapt much more easily to changing things.
Speaker 3 00:28:26 Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 4 00:28:28 But if your child is a young teen or even an older teenager, being able to stay near their friends becomes hugely more important.
Speaker 3 00:28:38 Right?
Speaker 4 00:28:41 One of the many reasons you need to update your estate plan as your kids get older life changes
Speaker 3 00:28:47 Mm-hmm <affirmative> right. How often would you tell someone to revisit their estate plan?
Speaker 4 00:28:57 I would say they should think about it every three to five years. You might not need to do anything about it in that timeframe. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but you should at least check in with the lawyer and say, Hey, has the law changed? Because that happens all the time. Mm-hmm <affirmative> look at your kids, have their circumstances and who they're close to has that changed.
Speaker 3 00:29:16 Right. Right. Yeah. Any other considerations for choosing a guardian in
Speaker 4 00:29:26 Choose the guardian first? It's the most important job mm-hmm <affirmative> you can always choose a professional to handle the money and the legal, but when you choose a professional to handle guardianship, you get foster care and that's nobody's idea of a good time.
Speaker 3 00:29:41 Right?
Speaker 4 00:29:42 There are some wonderful, fabulous foster parents out there. I don't wanna imply otherwise, but they're not the majority, unfortunately, in my own personal experience. Mm-hmm
Speaker 3 00:29:54 <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. Yeah. So I know when I was doing my estate plan and I, I think this is something that comes up fairly regularly for my clients is, um, like my family, my direct family was not the obvious person to choose. Um, and so then I sort of had like the world as my oyster, but there was there wasn't that one obvious person. And I think I came to you and I said, I wanna create this like pool of people and let them decide amongst themselves. Um, when the circumstances come up, if they come up, um, and you were definitely told me not to do that. And that I basically needed to, I could pick several people, but I needed to kind of rank them and that legally they could go in and sort of decline and let the next person say yes. Um, but if someone, uh, doesn't have family that is obvious, what would you tell them?
Speaker 4 00:30:55 Uh, it's actually really common not to have close family members that fit in that way. Um, which seems to keep surprising people. It's really common. So you look at your friends, you look at the people in your life that you feel are there for you, and you might have never thought of them as being there for you as a parent or to take care of your children. It's sometimes possible. They don't even have a close relationship with your, with your children, but they're somebody that, you know, you can count on and you, you have enough in common that you feel close to them. That's the first thing I would look for. It doesn't have to be somebody good with kids. It doesn't have to be somebody that you think, oh, well, this person has tons of time because let's be honest. Nobody has tons of time. It's someone you feel comfortable with.
Speaker 3 00:31:58 Yes. I know that. I just, for an example for people, I, one of the people on, sorry, my child is kind of freaking out, so I'm trying to multitask and get him something to watch on the iPad. Um, but one of the people I chose was, uh, his first daycare provider. Um, and I know that I really, really, really believe in her values. I know that I, she wanted kids. She's actually now a single mom by choice. Um, but that I would feel like, yeah, she would make the choices that I would want and be an amazing mom. So I also have, you know, a close college friend that I've stayed in contact with for, you know, 20 some odd years. Um, and I can't remember who else is on that list, but I know that it felt like very emotionally upsetting to have to go sort of that far afield to pick this woman or, and put her on the list, but it feels like the right choice for my child. So I thought that was, for me, it was like an interesting process to go to and an interesting choice to come to
Speaker 4 00:33:06 For myself. I, I have siblings, some of whom I'm actually very close to, but that, isn't where I wound up going. When I looked at guardianship and my what wound up being my first choice when my child was quite young, was somebody who also had a child a little younger than mine. And I, I just thought, I, I love everything you're doing with your child. Um, I know you, I like you will not close, but I really would like the idea that if I wasn't there raising my child, you would be because I really like the way you're doing this. So it wasn't intuitive for me, but I felt really comfortable after I'd settled on it. And for me, that was, that was the sign I've made this decision and I'm not freaking out anymore. Okay. It must have been the right one.
Speaker 3 00:34:04 Right. Nice. And do you normally tell people, what do you tell people around, like who they're choosing and what conversation they're having with that person? Like, do people ever name guardians and the person has no clue that they've even been named? Or if in the instance where you're like not naming a family member, do you specifically tell them, or do you just kind of quietly put it in your guardianship papers and let them find out once it's been a POS, you know, once it's been enacted or what do you tell people around that piece of it?
Speaker 4 00:34:39 That is such a great question. <laugh> uh, absolutely. It happens all the time that people discover that their guardian or trustee and, and they didn't know, they had no idea. And, and the advantage to that is that you didn't have to have a conversation with them that might have wound up being moot. You didn't have to worry about it ahead of time. And if someone discovers that they're named and they think I don't wanna do this, or I can't do this, they can say, no, none of these carries their requirement of acceptance. Part of why you should always name backups, whomever you name, you should have backups. And when you're choosing not to name somebody, especially a family member, and you think they're gonna be upset about it, not discussing it with them, seems like a fine thing to do, because why let them get upset about something that might never even happen? It's not like having a fight with them is gonna make anybody feel better. Not you, not them pointless.
Speaker 8 00:35:52 Right.
Speaker 4 00:35:54 But if you do decide to talk to people about it, then I would urge you to use language. Like I'm thinking about naming you rather than just saying, so I'm gonna name you. Is that okay?
Speaker 8 00:36:10 <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:36:10 Because over time we mentioned this before things change, right? And the person who's a perfect choice today might not be a perfect choice through no fault of their own six years from now. And if you've said to somebody I'm naming you, you are it. And then, you know, things have changed and you wind up updating it and naming someone else. And then something happens. Well, that first person finds out, oh, wait, I'm not it anymore. Was it because she didn't like me? Was she mad at me? Did I do something? But you're gone. They can't ask you. And so you've heard this person in a way you can't fix for no reason. And it's probably somebody you care about. I'm not a fan of that. If you say to someone I'm thinking about naming you, what do you think then? The fact that you've thought about them is the part they retain so that no matter who it winds up being, they still feel good. They still feel like, oh, you thought about me, really liked me the same way who it out to be. Hurt's feelings.
Speaker 3 00:37:38 That's great advice. And how many, how many people would you tell people to name? Um, like in order to have backups is too sufficient or would you say three or even more than that?
Speaker 4 00:37:52 Uh, at least two. I, I usually insist my clients come up with a name and a backup, which for many people is arduous enough, but, uh, three is not unusual more than that is pretty uncommon.
Speaker 3 00:38:09 Okay. Yeah. And then I know that when I like approached friends, like one of my friends has teenage boys now and she's like, you know, it's not my first inclination to do it. And I'm not sure where I'm gonna be, like, I might be done with parenting by then. And you know, like, of course, if something happened to you I'd wanna step in and help, but you know, as of now I would be able to do it, but I don't know if I could, if my kids had already graduated, I just don't know that I'd wanna start over. So she and I, you know, I explained to her that I had other guardians on the list that could step up and that she and I would try and have a conversation every five years and see whether or not it still made sense to have her on that list. Um, do you have other conversations like that or ways you would approach that, um, with that kind of circumstance?
Speaker 4 00:39:01 I think it's a great idea to check in again with people, but it's, it's helpful to let them know that they can decline whether it's guardian or trustee. The fact that your name is written down doesn't doesn't mean that you have to do anything. It means you have an opportunity. Um, somebody who says to you today that they couldn't possibly step in as guardian, because they're wrangling already teenagers and life is crazy. And there's no way, well, maybe if this actually becomes a need, that won't be the case. Maybe those teenagers will be outta the house by then. We, we don't know. And they don't know either.
Speaker 3 00:39:45 Right.
Speaker 4 00:39:46 So regardless of some, whether someone says to you, yes or no today, you don't know what their circumstances will be when the need actually arises. If it does,
Speaker 3 00:39:59 Mm-hmm, <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:40:00 Backups help provide for that possibility.
Speaker 3 00:40:04 Right?
Speaker 4 00:40:05 I do think it's important to name individuals as guardians, rather than couples, because even the most, uh, permanent seeming couple or family arrangement can change. Right. And the last thing you want is to put your child in a custody fight.
Speaker 3 00:40:29 Right. They would get involved in the CU if you named a couple and the couple had separated. Yeah. They could argue over who. Wow. That's a fascinating concept to think about <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:40:44 <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:40:47 Right. And so then can you talk a little bit more? So the, the living trust you said is the financial, it takes care of the financial pieces and then the will is the guardianship, but the li if you have a living will or a living trust and a will basically the, the will sort of like lives inside the trust, is that correct?
Speaker 4 00:41:09 Essentially, the only thing the will does is established guardianship. The trust does everything else.
Speaker 3 00:41:17 Mm-hmm <affirmative> okay.
Speaker 4 00:41:18 It's called a poor over will when you have a trust, because except for guardianship, the only thing the will says is if I left any assets out of my trust, pour them over, like it was a glass of water into the trust and treat it like it was all in there.
Speaker 3 00:41:38 Mm, okay.
Speaker 4 00:41:40 So all the things that most people think of as being in a will, you know, who's in charge who gets what all of that is actually in the trust. It's just guardianship that stays in the
Speaker 3 00:41:52 Will. Interesting. Interesting. So another question. So if someone, when would you recommend that someone do their, do their estate plan? Like as soon as they're pregnant, should they be doing it, um, in an ideal world,
Speaker 4 00:42:11 In an ideal world, either as soon as you purchase real estate, or as soon as you know, you're gonna have a child, whichever comes first.
Speaker 3 00:42:19 Okay. Okay.
Speaker 4 00:42:22 If you do your estate planning before the child is born, then it will say, I have a child who's anticipated to be born such and such a time. And then you do have to update it after the child is born.
Speaker 3 00:42:36 Okay.
Speaker 4 00:42:37 Because you do want the actual name and birth date to be in there.
Speaker 3 00:42:41 Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 4 00:42:43 So you're gonna wanna work with an attorney. Who's not gonna charge you to update it
Speaker 3 00:42:48 Right.
Speaker 4 00:42:49 A few months later. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that, that would be unreasonable.
Speaker 3 00:42:52 Okay.
Speaker 4 00:42:55 I think some attorneys say you should wait until the child is born in my own experience as a single mom, the period right after the child was born, I was not in a good ability to make decisions like this. Cause my attention was already full. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 00:43:15 Yeah. Yeah. I
Speaker 4 00:43:17 Think so. I, I might have been able to, you know, catch up and just contact a lawyer and say, okay, here's the birth date? And the name, tell me what to sign. But more than that, I don't think I would've been up for that. Doesn't mean other people better than me. <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:43:30 Right. Right. And I know, you know, when it's not a cheap process, I know you have really reasonable rates and ways of keeping it cheaper for people. But if someone's like pregnant and they're like, oh my God, it feels so expensive. I can't wrap my brain around this. Or they hit sort of like an emotional block. Cuz I think that happens too. What would you, what would you tell them? Or what would your advice be?
Speaker 4 00:43:56 Start with a will if it's feeling overwhelming either emotionally or financially, uh, go on to Nolo press, which is online at N O L o.com get their will maker plus program Nolo makes terrible trusts, but they, they do perfectly decent stop gap wills.
Speaker 3 00:44:20 Okay.
Speaker 4 00:44:22 And you can do it on your computer with your friend holding your hand and you're making these initial decisions.
Speaker 3 00:44:31 Okay.
Speaker 4 00:44:31 You print it out, you sign it in front of a couple of witnesses who aren't named and at least you have something it's not ideal, but it's better than nothing.
Speaker 3 00:44:40 Okay.
Speaker 4 00:44:42 And that's, that's that whole middle column of when you just have a will.
Speaker 3 00:44:46 Right. Right. Okay. Um, and anything, do you know anything about, or could you say anything about life insurance? I know when we talked about like having money for your child, if something happened to you that the trustee is going to be managing, uh, is that something you advise people to get and do you have like recommendations of where to start to look for that kind of product?
Speaker 4 00:45:11 I'm personally a fan of life insurance, but that I professionally, I don't really have a opinion about it.
Speaker 3 00:45:18 Mm-hmm <affirmative> okay. Um,
Speaker 4 00:45:21 In terms of deciding what kind of life insurance there is an online resource it's I, I, i.org, it's the insurance information Institute and I think its org,
Speaker 3 00:45:34 Okay.
Speaker 4 00:45:35 If you contact an insurance, uh, agent, they will tell you that whatever kind they sell is the best kind to get.
Speaker 3 00:45:42 Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:45:43 <laugh> which can be confusing. Yes. But the insurance information Institute is a nonprofit. They don't care what you buy or if you buy and they'll tell you in clearer terms, what all the different kinds of insurance are.
Speaker 3 00:45:56 Mm. Okay. That's great to know. Cuz I've I know when I started researching it, I was just like, I don't know. I'm so confused. Um, yeah. Um, anything else that you think is important for single moms or single moms to be, to think about in terms of their estate planning and guardianship?
Speaker 4 00:46:18 I think the most important thing is if you're gonna do your estate planning and you work with a lawyer, find a lawyer that you feel comfortable with. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you aren't necessarily looking for, who's the least expensive because you want somebody you're gonna have a relationship with for years and years and years, as you set this up and update it as your kids become adults and have kids of their own, it's much more important to find somebody that you feel comfortable with no matter what they charge in the short term, because otherwise when things come up, when you have to call the lawyer and make a change, you're gonna put it off. You're not gonna wanna do it.
Speaker 3 00:47:01 Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so that's very good advice. What about a question that comes to mind for myself? Like if I move states from California and I be, I still own a home in California, but I'm a resident of another state. Do I need to update, like if you're moving, do you need to update it and find a whole new attorney?
Speaker 4 00:47:22 Sadly. Yes. Every state has their own laws. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and so I, I can't advise somebody who's not a resident of California. Right. So if you are in a different state, you need to check in with the lawyer in that state and say, what do I do?
Speaker 3 00:47:38 Mm-hmm <affirmative> okay. Good to know for people. I think just as a baseline that if you're moving states, you need to redo your redo or somehow update your plan so that it's compliant with those state laws.
Speaker 4 00:47:51 Mm-hmm
Speaker 3 00:47:52 <affirmative> okay. Okay. Yeah. Anything else you wanna add that feels, um, relevant or important for this group of women?
Speaker 4 00:48:04 Do your estate planning, your kids and everybody else who loves you will. Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:48:09 <laugh> yes. Yes. Very, very, very important. Awesome. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Kathleen. That was really, really, um, helpful people can find
[email protected]. Um, and we will have a recording of this in the membership, and I know it will get watched many, many times. Um, so I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 00:48:32 This has been great. Thank you so much for having me on
Speaker 3 00:48:35 You're so welcome. Thank you for your time.
Speaker 2 00:48:43 I hope you got tremendous value from this interview. And if you want more of this content, please join my membership. I'm still offering founder's rate, which is 9 97 a month or $97 a year. Price will be going up soon. So jump on your chance to get my founder's rate includes the membership platform, where you can connect with other women on the journey, as well as all of my interviews with guest experts and SMC panels on various topics, such as dating support, it also includes online meet up so you can meet other women and ask me anything sessions where you can get your burning questions answered. You can find the link in the show notes about how to join. I hope to see you inside. And if you like this episode, please make sure to rate and subscribe anywhere you listen to podcasts so that other women can find this podcast. Thanks so much. Bye for now.
